It's a small wrong, perhaps, in the world of big wrongs around us. But it just strikes me as wrong, nonetheless.

A man is left brain-dead in a motorcycle crash. He and his wife never had a kid. So before he dies, she arranges to have a sperm sample removed.

So she can have his baby.

"When the doctor said my husband was not going to make it, I felt like I couldn't go on without him," said Mandy Garvin, 22, who was married to Josh Garvin for about a year. "He wanted to be a daddy. He wanted to have a little boy so he could spoil that boy so much."

I'm sorry for your grief, lady. Really. It's a tragedy. But he's never going to be a daddy. He's dead now. He's not going to be able to spoil a little boy (presuming that's how that crap shoot works out). He'll never be able to spoil his child.

He's dead.

Is it worth it as a tribute to your dead husband to go out of your way to have a child without a father? Is this about the child? About your husband? Or about your grief, your loss of your husband, your loss of the idealized expectations you had of your future life together?

On Tuesday, doctors at Swedish told Mandy they'd found a cryogenics lab in California that would accept the sperm. The news ended a tense two days, in which Mandy Garvin and her family not only lost Josh but also almost lost the hope of seeing his eyes again in a newborn baby.
"It was really tough, going through losing my son-in-law and then the chance of Mandy not having a light at the end of the tunnel," said Mandy's father, Mike Elliott.

Has anyone gotten this woman -- and, for that matter, her family -- some grief counselling? Would some family friend please tell them this is not the time to be making life-altering decisions?

It won't be Josh's eyes, folks. It won't be Josh. Get a grip, people? Grieve, but don't drag an innocent into your grieving process as well.

"She and Josh just really wanted to have a baby and share that love," Elliott said. "I was just waiting to be a grandfather, and it would have been just such a special time in our lives."

And it's a terrible tragedy that it won't happen now. Even if Mandy has a baby, it won't be the same as Mandy and Josh having the baby. Really. And the baby involved is going to suffer for it.

I can't believe, to be quite honest, that the story was presented in such wistfully romantic tones("Dreams of Fatherhood Stay Alive" reads the headline), with nary a criticism of the whole idea quoted from anyone, nor any consideration of the problems discussed.

It is, ultimately, up to Mandy what to do. I just hope she waits several months -- or more -- before making that decision. Because, as it stands, she's doing it for all the wrong reasons.

Filed under :: Love and Marriage :: Parenting
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This seems to be a new trend of sorts.

I remember reading about couples storing sperm in case the husband was killed in Iraq.

Which seems to me to be equally wrong, though less obviously driven by immediate grief.

The saddest part is that this 22 year-old is making the decision based on the belief that she will be a widow forever. Just her and her child and the memory ofher dead husband, when in fact, she will soon be a lonely young woman realizing how hard it is to find a new husband with a baby at home. She should be thanking God that she doesn't have any kids..

Agreed.

Yes, this is YOUR opinion and some may or may not agree with YOUR opinion but do you have to be so heartless and rude and write such horrible things about it? Josh is my cousin and when I was surfing looking for articles to save on his death, I came across yours and am really hurt by it. Mandy is in a complete state of shock and for her, at 22, to even comprehend the thought of having a child with her deceased husband is amazing to me.

Again, this is YOUR opinion and I have no clue who you are or what you write about but MY opinion is that you are going to hurt people by this. I guess thats freedom of press though, you write whatever you want to get attention...ugh you make me sick.

Relative, sorry you find this "so hearless and rude and ... horrible," and it's true that the immediacy of the Internet means that the principals of news stories may run across such commentary in a way that they would not run across a casual conversation on the street or in a private home.

Still, I can't help but think that your statement Mandy is in a complete state of shock and for her, at 22, to even comprehend the thought of having a child with her deceased husband is amazing to me does nothing to dissuade me from my viewpoint; it only confirms it.

Personally I think you need to get a life. What business is it of yours to comment on someone else's life? Until you have been in someone else's shoes you have no right to pass judgment on what they are going through or what decisions they make. I happen to be Josh's Aunt and I haven't even passed judgment on what Mandy had decided would be the right thing to do. If you paid attention to the articles and interviews, you would have noticed that Mandy has stated that she wants to give herself time to grieve and THEN make a decision as to what to do. Her fight to preserve Josh's sperm was done so that she would at least HAVE the decision to make when the time comes. No one has the right to say that what she is contemplating would be the wrong thing to do. IF you knew her and Josh and all the loving friends and family that have always surrounded and supported them, then you would know that IF a child would be brought into this world by Mandy, it would be greatly loved. YES the child would not have Josh as a father to love him and spoil him but, the child would have an awesome circle of loving people around him. Unlike many children that are brought into this world today by two parents. The thought of someone actually saying that the child "would suffer" because of Mandy's decision is ludicrous. No need to respond, I will never visit your site again.

Actually, I see nothing in the article about wanting "time to grieve" first. Everything mentioned there indicates that this is Mandy's intent, not possible provision for some future decision.

Until you have been in someone else’s shoes you have no right to pass judgment on what they are going through or what decisions they make. [...] No one has the right to say that what she is contemplating would be the wrong thing to do.

If someone was wrenched with grief and went out and started shooting people at random on the street, I think most people would, while being understanding, still be willing to "pass judgment" about the decision, and say that it was "the wrong thing to do."

Regardless, conceiving a baby out of some sense of connectedness with, love of, and loss toward someone who has died seems quite legitimately questionable to me, whether done in the midst of grief or in the cold light of day. I believe, among other thoughts, that it places an unrealistic a burden on the child itself -- to have "his eyes" and be an expression of "his love" or even to be the 'little boy" that Josh would have wanted to spoil.

Granted, all babies have expectations heaped on them by parents, even in the most loving families, but the language I'm reading above sounds to me like the child would be created and wanted, not for his or herself, but for the connection to Josh. And I don't think that's right, fair, or healthy.

I belive that you have no right to talk about these people like this. Iam not a relative of any kind to these people, I have never even herd of them but it has to be awful to read what you wrote and be them, I mean what if this was your family that this happened to how would you feel if someone was talking like this and had it out to every one to read. I know that you have your own opinion about this and I have mine so I guess that i'm just trying to say I dont agreee with you and I feel sorry for these people. I lost my Dad when I was 7 so I know how it feels not to have a father around but I still think that if she wants to have a child that it her descion to make and I dont think you have the right to judge her on that .

It is certainly her decision, and I would vehemently defend anyone who tried to take it away from her. I just think she's making the wrong decision.

I opine on wrong decisions (and right ones) every day here; I'm not sure why this particular one is somehow off-limits.

I feel very sorry for these people, too, and I'm sorry you lost your Dad. You seem to understand the difficulty of "not to have a father around;" my concern is less whether conceiving and having this posthumous child is good for her, but good for the child, especially since, from what's being quoted, the child would be being brought into the world simply to fulfill the wishes of the now-departed husband to have a baby, and so that the widow could see her departed husband's eyes again. That seems to me to be an awful set of reasons to have a baby, regardless of whether it's her decision or not. Not that there aren't children conceived for equally poor reasons out there, to be sure, but that doesn't justify it.

I will concede this: I would not, were I to suddenly run into this woman at a dinner party, begin to chide her for her decision to her face. Of course, I probably wouldn't chide any number of people -- celebrities, politicos -- to their face, without getting to know them better, for actions they've taken that I disapprove of. That's the dichotomy of personal vs. impersonal politeness. If I let the illusion of distance over the Internet make me speak beyond the bounds of politeness, it was more for the potential child involved than out of a desire to be hurtful or rude.

As an adult who lost my mother so young that I do not remember her (2 years), I cannot stress how sad I would be if this women purposely brought a child into the world without a father. As often as tragedy strikes, it seems short-sighted to choose to have a fatherless (or motherless) child by choice.
Until you have walked a few miles in my shoes you can't possible know how the loss of my mother affected me. My family rallied around me and did everything they could to mitigate the effects, but they could only do so much. Being without my mother is a hole that can never fully be filled. I could never bring myself to visit those feelings on another.

Okay Dave So tell me this! Do you believe in abortion? because I believe that you would have a totally different outlook on the stiuation if things were different?? So people sit here and preach about abortion, about how wrong it is, even if the mother is going to be a SINGLE MOTHER or even worse a drug addict mother or the child ends up an orphan.... but you and/or others might still say that abortion is wrong, bring this child up in a situation like that but yet a loving and caring person like Mandy, who has ALOT of support, you and others disagree that she should have her deceased husbands child? Explain that one Dave! I just think people are being really two-faced about the whole situation, Don't have an opinion until you are in a situation like it, or at least know the person. Because if you knew Mandy like I do and others do, I think you would swallow your words. Children are raised by single parents every second! Its alot better then a child going through a hellish divorce!

I believe that single parenthood, in general, is not the best environment for a child (let alone a parent), and should be discouraged (though not forbidden). Finding oneself in that situation is unfortunate, but acting to bring that situation about, unless the alternatives are worse, is not something I think anyone should recommend -- especially if it is being done (as described here) out of some sense of romantic nostalgia.

You are a disgusting human being. I, along with others was looking on the internet finding beautiful pictures of my friends Josh and Mandy together. How horrible this was to see. I immedietly wanted to cry, I was so in shock. How insensitive you are. How can you call yourself a man? Josh was and even in his death is a bigger man than you. God is looking down in shame on you sir. I feel very sorry for you. It seems you have a lot of anger built up inside, and instead of getting ANGER COUNSELING for this. You instead decide to hurt me, Mandy, all of Josh's relatives and friends. Wow, I was not even going to waste my time writing you, but someone has to let you know how bad this hurt to read. Mandy IS going to be a wonderful mother. I am sorry you are so bothered by this. Perhaps it is fear of how awful a father you are, were, are going to be, or had. I am truly sorry for that. Please leave this subject alone if you truly are a man. What a beautiful baby in those pictures. You are blessed. I hope nothing ever happens that could take that away from you. Like a sudden tragic death. Perhaps you could focus your attention on the fact that by his organ donation, he helped over 50 people. Now THAT'S something to write about.

Wow...

If Dave is Disgusting, what in the heck am I?

I know grief makes people lash out at others for odd and not so odd reasons, but Dave and others have expressed their opinions on the subject, and that is all they are…opinions. You and Your Family and Friends may not agree (due to the closeness of the subject), but in a free society it is very likely that you will come across subjects that you will find offensive (I know I do).

That’s life.

Dave and Margie are two of the best people that I know, maybe you should read some more about Dave and his opinions on other topics before wishing for his or his child's untimely death. Time flies and Death comes way to soon to all to be wishing it on others.

Do not put your grief on others.

Deal with it in constructive ways.

I know that this strike against the "evil" Dave will make you feel better today as you talk to your Friends and Family ("yeah…I really showed him!"), but it does nothing to heal your loss, and the hurt in you life.

There are a great many people that I know that need ANGER COUNSELING, and Dave is not one of them (though he tends to get fussy when not coffee'd in the Morning).

I personally find it a good thing when a Donor-cycle rider donates their organs to others. My sister's best friend growing up received they heart and lungs of a Donor-cycle rider and she has gone to lead full, if not slightly restricted life. Giving the gift of life to others is the greatest gift that can be given

Also, We should be so lucky to have a Father like Dave in our Lives.

As an aside…I am starting to notice a certain repetition in the full caps.

Thanks, Stan. (And, for the record, the IP addresses are all very different.)

I certainly have nothing against Josh. He made a mistake in riding without his helmet, but certainly he didn't intend to leave behind the wife he evidently loved. And that he had arranged for organ donations was very noble of him.

Having his baby, though, is not going to bring him back.

Dave, you have to be kidding me, your judging someone's decision to have a kid when the husband is not around. Will this be the first time that a widow has a child when the husband dies before the child is born? NO, absolutely not. What is wrong with wanting to preserve someone's legacy? When couples can not have children they adopt, so in this case, he had his sperm set aside, and now she wants to have his baby. She was in love with this man, and you have to respect someone's decision to have a child. I agree that she needs to wait until she is over the shock of her husbands death, but at that point if she wants to still have the child, she should have support in her decision. Next time you write an article get the full story, because there is a lot of information that you do not know. You make Mandy sound like she is an unstable human being, when she has handled this situation as well as anyone could. They were planning on having a baby before his death...suppose by chance that she was pregnant at the time of his death, would you tell her to have an abortion? I really doubt that, so in reality, what is the difference?

I certainly hope that you all are as supportive of Mandy after she has the child as you are before she does. I hope that you give freely of your time, money and life as you are of your grief and anger here. Mandy will need it.

Being a liberal, I feel that Mandy has the right to do anything that she wishes with her life.

That is her choice and her right.

I do not have to like.

I do not have to support it.

But I can say or feel anything I want on the subject.

Nor do I want to hear any whining from her of hers about how tough it is for her and the child years from now during some "sweeps" month. Her choice, you all deal with it.

The human species has survived worse, and will survive this little episode. Several of us tend to believe that having two parents in your life is a good thing and will give advantages to the offspring in the long run. Having lived through a bitter parental divorce and the joys of dealing with a single Mother, I know that she is not choosing an easy life for herself or her child.

Dave, you have to be kidding me,

Nope.

your judging someone’s decision to have a kid when the husband is not around.

Yup.

Will this be the first time that a widow has a child when the husband dies before the child is born? NO, absolutely not.

True. The difference here is that in most of those cases in the past, pregnancy occured while the couple was still alive, and still intending to be both alive. (Those that took place where the husband was, say, terminally ill and expecting to die, I would have the same objections to.)

What is wrong with wanting to preserve someone’s legacy?

Nothing, per se. But there are good ways of doing so and bad ways, in my opinion.

When couples can not have children they adopt,

Which has nothing to do with this case.

so in this case, he had his sperm set aside, and now she wants to have his baby.

If you read the article, you'll see that she had his sperm preserved after the accident, which is quite a bit different.

Though, to be honest, if they'd previously talked about it and made the decision before the accident that, in case he died, she should have his baby, I'd have the same objections.

She was in love with this man, and you have to respect someone’s decision to have a child.

I am in no way questioning her love for him (only some of its expression), and I completely believe, as Stan does above, that it is ultimately her decision; I respect that, even if I think it's a poor decision.

I agree that she needs to wait until she is over the shock of her husbands death, but at that point if she wants to still have the child, she should have support in her decision.

I hope, like Stan does, that she has a lot of support.

Next time you write an article get the full story, because there is a lot of information that you do not know.

My information comes from the newspaper article cited in the original article. If there's more info I should know, I welcome being informed.

You make Mandy sound like she is an unstable human being, when she has handled this situation as well as anyone could.

In this particular aspect, I disagree.

They were planning on having a baby before his death…suppose by chance that she was pregnant at the time of his death, would you tell her to have an abortion? I really doubt that, so in reality, what is the difference?

If she chose to have an abortion, that, too, would be her choice, and I could see why she might. But the difference would be making an overt, explicit act to conceive this child in the absence of a father, as opposed to happenstance causing that to come about. Beyond that, given the quoted statements that this is being done, not out of desire to have a child, but to have a child to make up for the loss of the husband, I'd say it's even more different.

What kind of cold hearted looser opens up a website to discuss others lives? You must not be a very happy person? Maybe you are the one in need of councling. Im sorry that you think this situation is not right but honestly this is none of your business! Maybe you need to fix your family issues before you try to solve others. I am sure you or someone in your family knows someone who is raising a child or two all alone. Do you tell them that they are not being a good parent and that there child is going to grow up having issues because they only have one parent? I think not. Some parents run out on their families, give there children away, or leave them out in the cold behind dumpsters... these are some of the children who end up with problems maybe these are the people you need to be addressing not mandy and her family!!! I know being a single parent is hard work but that doesnt mean that they are a bad parent and that they dont know how to raise a child. We are living in the year 2000 things are different now. Yes, ten years ago seeing single parents around town may have been odd but not anymore. Hello welcome to the new generation buddy. Being a single parent does not mean you are a bad parent or clueless on how to raise a child. I think many single parents end up becoming stronger people. I believe that there are some COUPLES out there who never should have had children in the first place.... drug addicts, child abusers, and those who live in poverty. These are only some of the people who are unfit to be parents. How will they care for a child when they cant even take care of themselves? Again these are the people you should be addresing! Mandy is a strong women who has a great job, her own house and car, andlots of love and support from her family and friends when she needs it. Fortunetly for mandy she can take care of herself all by herself. I know it is going to be hard not having her husband there all the time but she is a surviver and she will make it. You really should think about what you're saying before you say it because your words are very hurtful and worng! Like many of the others who have responded to your nonsence said dont tell others how to live your life until you yourself have expeianced such a loss.

Thank you all for responding back for mandy and her family because they have enough to deal with.

Mandy if you do read any of this garbage know that your family and friends love you very much and we support YOUR dessison no matter what you choose to do.

Now please just let our Joshua Patrick Garvin rest in peace. Please!

Theeere Baaack...

It's thread that never ends,

It keeps going 'till the end,

Once we think it's over they post again,

It's thread that never ends...

Maybe it's genetic...you know the ALL CAPS thing. But I am glad that this post is keeping some suburban house wife busy driving from internet café to Library so that she can post her "support" for Mandy.

You Go Girl. No really…leave.

These attacks on Dave and his family are certainly not helping you get through your grief. I'm so glad Dave can provide this valuable service for you. Maybe Mandy and her unstable friends and Family can get some group rate discounts for Grief Counseling

And yes, Single parents become strong people…they HAVE TO (Feel the wrath of my all caps) because of choice or circumstance.

And Remember people…the internet is just like the TV; If all you want to see is sunshine and rainbows, don't go looking for the rain. Or in other words…There are going to be people who disagree with things that you do or say (heck, some of them might even be your friends).

On the plus side. Dave, you are #3 on google on with "Mandy Garvin".

And Hey...I would be more then glad to let JPGRIP, but somebody keeps posting attacks on Dave on the Subject.

I see that Mandy’s friends and family are not only are they rude; they are challenged when it comes to grammar.
This is AMERICA people. Get a grip.
Free speech and freedom of expression, you remember those, right? Just like you are exercising your right to complain about Dave, he’s exercising his right to state his opinion about your misguided friend.

My God. You're right, Stan. Certainly not my intent.

Looking at another article on this, it seems that this is something that Josh and Mandy discussed before he slipped into a coma. That doesn't make it any more sound of a decision, but it does color some of the above discussion.

I do hope Josh is resting in peace. Were I in his position, frankly, I'd be unpeaceful if my wife were considering such a course of action.

Certainly, Christy, there are couples who are bad parents. And there are singles that are good parents. But even you seem to acknowledge that it's an additional challenge trying to be a parent on your own.

If one of my friends were contemplating becoming a single parent, I would offer my support, but I would also share from my own experiences thus far how heavy of a burden parenthood is, even when shared. And if they were doing it for any reason other than the desire to have a child (as opp0osed to, say, in tribute to a wonderful but now past relationship), I hope I'd be honest enough to suggest I thought that was a mistake, too.

Finally, I'm merely expressing my opinion in a public but non-intrusive medium. I'm not writing to Mandy, not calling her friends, not getting in her face with this, nothing like that. If her family and friends insist on passing around the address for this site (and pushing it up to #3 in Google), it seems to me that they are the ones making a bigger fuss of it than it needs to be.

Mandy's strenght in unbelievable. I think you guys should leave her alone so that she can be free to make her own decisions. If you guys were put in a situation like this you would want your space to grieve and think. If you don't believe with what she's doing than do something about the laws that are in place to allow it but don't interfere with her life.

Ummmm...

Lola, I don't ever remember going to Mandy's house and telling her what I thought of her actions. Nor do I remember picking on her in any way, shape or form. And as far as I know (unless she comes to this site everyday) she has all of the peace to grieve that she needs.

Now, as to making laws against allowing people doing stupid things...Well that's just crazy talk. Only small-minded people decide that they can legislate morality, and that would be one of the last thing on my list of things to do.

But I guess that now we aren’t even allowed to hold opinions that differ from the friends and family involved.

On second thought…Like it matters since none of the “FoM’s” that post here ever come back.

P.S. Dave you’ve fallen to #5 on Google.

Well I've certainly "left her alone" for the past five months, until this comment popped up.

And, for what it's worth, I think that "moral suasion" is a better direction for cases like this than "there oughta be a law." It's certainly legal, and it probably should be -- but not everything legal is wise.

Blah Blah Blah....What you all have nothing better to do than go on this website and write a bunch of crap. Boulder Dude, I bet you are just sitting at home waiting for someone to write some crap just so you can write some smartass comment. get a life, NO ReAlLy... { Oops the caps } MY BAD

For a topic which folks seem to want "left alone," it's sure interesting who keeps commenting on it ...

Well...

Thanks for your concern Blah.

I have been accused of not have a life for a great many reasons, this isn't one of them.

Plus, I've always felt that my comments are more of the pithy veriety.

But if you’all keep posting, I’ll make sure to toss in my 2 cents worth.

Down to #7 on Google.

It has been a year since this tragedy and I am happy to say that Mandy is 6 months pregnant. She will be giving birth to a baby boy this February. I would like thank everyone for the support during the past year even if they may not have agreed with the decisions that may have been made.

I will certainly keep Mandy and her child in my thoughts and prayers.

shut up you homosexual you dont know mandy or josh but still you think about how you feal! i know mandy personaly i heard josh before he died he said how badly he wanted his child so now she has him and dont you dare keep this quear site running you dildo hole

Quoth ***Dave ...

Well, your profound commentary has certainly made me reconsider my position, and your clearly reasoned and moral judgment speaks for itself (if not your position) as well.

Hi, I know that this has been commented on enough and this is from over a year ago but for some reason I ran across it and wanted to say something. I understand that everyone has a right to their own opinions and have always been a firm believer in that. But I also felt like maybe you should know that this isn't always a bad decision. It is one for the person that is in the situation to make and doesn't always turn out bad for the child. I can say this because I am a child from a situation much like this one. My mom and dad made the decision to have me when my father was terminally ill. They decided to do it because they always wanted children together and knew that my dad wouldn't be around much longer. It is true that there has been times when I wanted nothing more than to see my father, to be able to really know him. But I am proud to have him as my father whether he is here or not, and even though I have never met him, besides right after I was born, I still feel as if I know him. Before he died he made video tapes for me, wrote letters, bought gifts for all of the special times in my life. He made sure that even though he wouldn't be here, that I would still have a part of him. He was a wonderful man and I would hate to know that someone like him wouldn't have had anyone to carry on his life, his legacy. And I know that I'm not him but part of him does live on in me. When I watch the videos I can see so much of myself in him. I'm sorry to keep this going, I'm not trying to say that you don't have a right to your opinions because you do, as do I, I just wanted you to know that sometimes this does work and the child doesn't have a bad life. My mother is the greatest woman in the world and I have never been angry about their decision to have me and have lived a very happy life. I have known and been loved by so many people and I wouldn't have given up knowing my grandma, grandpa, and the rest of my family. If I wouldn't have been born my father would have died July 5, 1983 and might have been forgotten but because of me he will live on, my children will know of him as well as theirs. Anyway, thank you for reading this. I hope you understand where I'm coming from as well.

I'm truly glad this worked out well for you.