So today, aside from the usual work stuff and building a few web pages and considering what I needed to get done this week, I started doing a lot of reading and browsing about TiVo vs Comcast DVR, which former I got Official Permission to Pursue for Christmas, and which latter I got a letter in the mail just before we left saying it was now available (and here I'd not even known it was coming).

Part of the difficulty in this whole quest is that, despite DVRs (Digital Video Recorders, aka PVRs or Personal Video Recorders) being some years old (see TiVo), it is still a relatively immature technology. TiVo remains the Macintosh-like leader in both interface and fanboyishness, but other products are picking up the slack (and digging into what passes for TiVo's business model).

So looking first at Comcast ...

• Comcast has a demo page for its service.
• This comparison is, evidently, outdated (based on the equipment Comcast was using in 10/2003).
• This article (12/2003) details more about the newer Motorola boxes that Comcast is using, and has extensive comments about the two systems in comparison. I've also downloaded the Motorola users guides and will peruse them.
• There's also an article on the Comcast DVR vs TiVo at the TiVo forums.
• And here's an up-to-date review of the most recent hardware being used by Comcast, the Motorola 6412, which refers quite a bit back to this review by an avowed hi-tech early-adopter.

But let's start with the business engagement part of things. Or, as Mr Morden used to say, "What do you want?"

(Hmmmm. Maybe not the most auspicious choice of questioners I could have made.)

I am looking for something that:

1. Lets me easily record and time-shift shows for later use. That's both for my own peculiar habits, Margie's shows, and stuff for Kitten.
2. Is easy to use and maintain. I have no desire to micromanage my TV environment the way I do my PC environment, especially since it's shared.
3. Provides me with the information I need about what's coming up, lets me flag shows for recording in advance, even if time slots change, etc.
4. Lets me record one show while watching another.

I am not looking for something that:

1. Can record or play back HDTV. Don't have it. Not wildly interested (this year). Not a factor. Unfortunately, all the reviews seem to assume that the only reason one would be a videophile is to have HDTV. This made some of the comparisons difficult to sift through.
2. Can record shows to DVD. Well, I might, I suppose, under some circumstances, though I remain leery of the multiplicity of DVD recording standards. It would be a nice-to feature, but nothing critical or worth paying much more money for. Yet.
3. Can hook up to my PC, my VCR, the microwave oven, and my blog, and that will let me share shows across the Internet by hacking into this port or that port or perhaps running this Linux program I downloaded from over here ... If I wanted that, I could follow the numerous directions on how to roll my own PVR for "free."

Reading through the above, and taking notes, I find the following:

Comcast/Motorola DVR advantages

• Significantly cheaper: no cost for the box ($100 deposit, though?), a possible service call charge ($30?), $10/mo. No ownership/upgrade costs (but stuck in Comcast's upgrade path). TiVo has the initial cost of the box ($100 with rebates for the basic 40Gb box, and on up from there), plus $13/month for the listings guide (or $300 "lifetime"). Those prices vary whether you're talking about TiVo per se, or DirecTV with TiVo, or HDDirectTV with TiVo, or other such permutations.
  
• Integrates the cable box with the DVR, meaning it minimizes space in the cabinet. This is a significant concern for us.
  
• Integrates the cable box with the DVR, meaning it minimizes inconvenience of viewing digital cable shows. For digital cable, the TiVo evidently requires using a little IR hookup to the cable box to change channels semi-automatically. What a pain.
  
• Integrates the cable box with the DVR, meaning one interface to (continue) to use. Though the old Comcast interface as sucked, the newer one* looks to be faster and slicker.
  
• If the damned thing breaks, the cable company will (eventually, with much angst and scheduling of appointments) fix it/replace it. If my TiVo breaks, I have to take it in for repairs, or ship it somewhere myself, etc.
  
• The current* Comcast DVRs appear to be dual-tuners, which means you can be watching one thing on digital cable while recording another. This sounds like it's not possible (or is an expensive add-on) with TiVo.
  
• Comcast is more likely to be around in five years than TiVo. No, really, there are a lot of concerns over TiVo's lifespan as a company, especially if DirecTV comes up with its own DVR. Of course, there always have been for years, just as there were with Apple. Still ...

TiVo advantages

• Doesn't involve the cable company. TiVo fans seem truly fanatic about the product (to the extent of reminding me of Mac fans -- and, possibly, with some of the same myopias), and nobody likes dealing with the cable company (in general) or Comcast (in particular), though Comcast has been doing some heavy investment into functionality and infrastructure.
  
• Superior interface. They've been doing this for some time. Even if the Comcast iGuide (with the new models*) is better than it was, the TiVo appears to be easier to use, and have a better remote.
  
• Higher-end capacities, and more resolution options available to maximize storage. Comcast's DVR* is a single (high) resolution, and is 80Gb/30ish hours capacity, period. There seem to be ways to get additional storage hooked/hacked into TiVo, but not with Comcast; and the Comcast 30h estimate seems to be very rough and optimistic (esp. if you record analog stuff). There are rumors of eventual upgrades to the Comcast unit, or the ability to hook in external storage, but those remain rumors.
  
• Season Pass. This means I can say, "record this show, whenever it's on." The Comcast DVR doesn't seem to do that, or do it well, or do it consistently. But it may do it in a mediocre fashion (not recognizing re-runs). It's difficult to tell. This is a key feature, though, I'd hate to do without.
  
• Recommendations, where TiVo figures out what you might want to watch based on your viewing habits and your ranking things thumbs-up/down. I'm not wowed about this, especially in a multi-viewer household.
  
• FF 30 seconds feature, to skip commercials. There may be a way to hack the Comcast remote to do this, but it seems spotty.
  
• May not introduce the bad digital video of analog (unencrypted) stations that folks report with the Comcast DVR. Comcast is broadcasting more via digital, so that may not be as much of an issue in the future, but the current reports about it are pretty bad (and, no, I do not want to have to put in a splitter).

*There seem to be questions whether the Motorola tuner being distributed in Denver at the moment is the latest-greatest Motorola 6412 dual-tuner (watch and record different channels) or single tuner box. That would definitely factor in. Of course, reading various reviews, it sounds like it's nearly impossible to get a straight (or, if straight, accurate) answer from Comcast as to whether you're going to get the single- or dual-tuner boxes. There is also the variation of different controlling software, from Microsoft vs Gemstar, but the former seems only available in Seattle.

The old problem of TiVos requiring a dial-up line has been resolved; current TiVos will download show info via broadband connection (either direct off the cable, or, presumably, off the hub that's already by all those components). Of course, this isn't a problem with the Comcast unit.

And, of course, there's the question of whether I should bag Comcast cable altogether and get a DirectTV/TiVo satellite hookup (I'd rather not get into that big a change, for a variety of reasons), or even look at ReplayTV (though I suspect that will entail some of the same issues as TiVo). Or whether, for the trivial cost, I should just get the Comcast unit and see how it goes.

*sigh*

I was really hoping this would be relatively simple. I ought to have known better.

Regardless, it sounds like I'll need to completely redo the wiring of my various components to get everything working. Which will be a big enough cost when as it is.

Filed under :: Hi-Tech
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Further notes (for convenient storage):

• Comparison chart for iGuide (the upgrade Comcast (TV Guide) menu system).
• The iGuide (TV Guide) DVR manual.
• DCT6400 Users Guide.

I just got the Comcast Motorola. The interface is much improved over the eariler comcast interface. It's not bad.

So far I've recorded a few shows and a few movies that I'd sort of like to watch. I haven't go into the "Start watching at the 20 minute mark" yet but I will. More likely I just record a show as I watch it and then pick up where I fell asleep.

I've been searching but don't find the Skip Forward 30 seconds button. The cable guy wasn't any help. Looks like they don't have it but I'm searching for a hack.

The dual tuner is really nice and seems to work. I think this might be the feature that tips the balance. A store bought Tivo doesn't have it. DirectTivo might. I don't know.

Regards,
Andy

Well, the Comcast Guy is due to be here this afternoon, so we'll see how it goes.

Here in the Bay Area, I got my Comcast DVR two weeks ago -- had it installed to my living room TV, and moved my Tivo to my bedroom for the time being. I want to shake down the Comcast unit 1-2 months before I'm willing to part with my Tivo.

To echo some of what's already been said...

Comcast Advantages:
1) The dual tuners are an absolute joy to have, and the major reason I wanted to get the Comcast unit. Tivo only has dual tuners in their DirecTV units.
2) Much much much faster channel changing than I have with my Tivo + digital cable box (even with a serial cable connection instead of IVR).
3) Keeping a small video window open when using the Menu or Guide. I can do all my future scheduling and options without the dead air that happens when you go into Tivo's menus.
4) Since it's fully integrated with my digital cable, I don't have to muck with the channel lineups. Never could manage to get Tivo completely synced with the TV channels I actually receive.

Comcast Disadvantages:
1) Occassional picture freezing -- you need to change the channel to get back to normal. Supposedly a bug in the buffering. Can't reproduce it, and I've had a Comcast tech out to check it out. They say other customers have reported it, and that they don't have a solution for it. Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, and the #1 reason why I'm keeping my Tivo for the time being.
2) Small hard drive, and no (apparent) ability to change the recording quality. With Tivo, I can jam more into my hard drive by dropping the recording quality -- which I don't mind doing for weekly TV shows that I'll only view one time. But with the Comcast unit, you really need to stay on top of your disk consumption... it fills up FAST! :(
3) No 30 second skip hack (that I'm aware of). It's not a must, but a real nice-to-have.
4) No jumping to the end of a recording, then jumping back to the beginning. You actually have to fast-forward or rewind through the whole thing, and it only seems to be able to scan through at about 1 minute of recording per 1 realtime second. In other words, if you want to advance to the end of a 1 hour recording, it'll take you 60 seconds (or so) to reach it. Doesn't seem like a long time if you're used to VCRs, but it's interminable if you're used to Tivo.
5) The remote is unwieldy compared to the simplicity of a Tivo remote.. too many buttons, not in intuitive places, oddly shaped, etc.
6) The menus similarly suffer compared to a Tivo. Your point about Tivo being more Macintosh-like is spot-on. The Tivo interfaces are so simple and intuitive.. Comcast isn't DIFFICULT, but it's not nearly as simple or clean of a UI.

In my experience (of 3-4 days):

1) The dual tuners are an absolute joy to have .... Agreed. The ability to (without switching stuff around) have one thing recording, the other being watched, or even to have two things being recoded, is most excellent.

2) Much much much faster channel changing than I have with my Tivo + digital cable box .... Speed compared to the previous Comcast cable box is about the same -- there are some additional lags (as the buffering starts), but it feels crisper (there's immediate response before the pause, rather than the other way around).

3) Keeping a small video window open when using the Menu or Guide. Definitely an advantage over my previous cable box/software. I just wish I could do it in the search function.

4) Since it’s fully integrated with my digital cable, I don’t have to muck with the channel lineups. Never could manage to get Tivo completely synced with the TV channels I actually receive. Hmmm. More than that, though, there's no distinction (as far as the box or viewing are concerned) between digitial and non-digital channels. Recording/guide/viewing integratio is seamless.

1) Occassional picture freezing — you need to change the channel to get back to normal. Supposedly a bug in the buffering. Haven't had this happen yet.

2) Small hard drive, and no (apparent) ability to change the recording quality. I think this is more of an issue for folks who see the HD for long-term storage ("until I get around to watching the whole series" or "until I feel like it"). For me, so far, the box is for short- to mid-range time-shifting. Since very few of the shows are ones I'm "completists" about, or have to watch in sequence, I have no problems with any of the material being bumped for new stuff coming in. And, at that, I'm hovering around 12-20% full.

Of course, my usage is still pretty new.

That the Comcast box doesn't allow "economical but bad" recording quality is kind of a shame.

3) No 30 second skip hack (that I’m aware of). It’s not a must, but a real nice-to-have. There is one, for certain remotes, that I've seen posted online. It is a pity, though more of an inconvenience than a real problem.

4) No jumping to the end of a recording, then jumping back to the beginning. I've noticed that. Again, an annoying inconvenience.

5) The remote is unwieldy compared to the simplicity of a Tivo remote. Not particularly worse (or better) than other universal remotes I've used. Certainly not anything to write home about.

6) The menus similarly suffer compared to a Tivo. [...] Comcast isn’t DIFFICULT, but it’s not nearly as simple or clean of a UI. Agreed. Certainly usable, and not even that bad. I've not used the TiVo menus, but I'd rate these as a solid "B."

Charter Cable uses Scientific Atlanta's Explorer 8000 box. (They gave it to us for free for a month to try it out, knowing that it's addictive and we'd never be able to go back to a regular cable box. $10 a month gauranteed for these digital crack dealers!) My main gripe is that the picture seems pretty low-resolution. Watching a submarine movie, I could see definite banding in the dark background, as if in a 640x480 video. Seems to look better in well-lit scenes, but freezing the picture yields definite pixelation.

I can jump the end of a layback. This is useful, because if I start watching a show that's being recorded, and I pause or rewind it, the playback will terminate when the recording process ends! Then I have to play it back, but at least I can jump to the end and rewind 15 minutes, instead of fast-forwarding 105 minutes. Still a pain, though.

I've been noticing digital artifacts in my playbacks, too. Not sure if it's a problem with the hard drive or the signal itself.

I suspect (from what I've read on the Motorola boxes) that the picture quality problem comes on analog (non-digital) channels, which have to be digitized on the fly (on the cheap, too) by the box for storage or buffering. Digital channels are better, since they're already, well, digital.

We were driving past the Comcast building on Dry Creek today and Katherine said "That is the place where the guy who fixed our TV works. I recognized the red circle and the C." And you thought your daughter's brand recognition was limited to cars.

I can answer a few questions you have about the Comcast DVR. The ones they use in Denver and Northern Colorado are the Moto 6412 which is a dual tuner with a 120GB capacity. (Mountains and Pueblo still have the 6200 series which is a single tuner 80GB model). Regarding the 30sec FF feature there are upcoming FCC regs that will prohibit the feature, as such Comcast opted not to include that button on their branded remotes, but I hava a hack that will convert one of your unused buttons to activate this feature. I've used it and it works great!

Last comment. Due to the DVRs problems with analog feeds Comcast is stepping up their efforts to impement a full digital broadcast.

If you have any other questions regarding Comcast (especially in the Denver market) I work there so I'd be happy to help you out. This thing asked me for my email so I assume you will be able to see it even if its not displayed publicly. Feel free to drop me a line anytime.

Ben C.
"Sparky"

I'd definitely be interested in that hack. There's one I've seen for a different remote that Comcast uses, but none (yet) for the one we got.

Can you please point me in the right direction for the 30 sec FF feature? I've been using Comcast's DVR since early January and have been pleased. Have had some little bugs. Recordings starting playback in Chip&Dale mode. Audio but no live TV, menu's work so I have found a fix by starting a playback of a recorded show then stopping it then the live tv is back. This only happens when my son (3yr's old) turns the Cable box off and back on. I have also seen lock-ups in the VOD. Some of the audio of the VOD seem to be lacking. Have to turn the volume way up.

can u convert your Satellite tivo to a regular tvio

No idea. I'd think so, but I wouldn't spend any money on my uninformed opinion about it.

The following instructions will re-program the "HD Zoom" button on the remote control to function as a "30 second fast forward" button. Works perfect for skipping through commercials. It will function when playing programs recorded on the DVR & also when playing a buffered program.

1) Press the "Cable" button at the top of the remote to put it into Cable Box control mode.

2) Press and hold the "Setup" button until the "Cable" button blinks twice.

3) Type in the code 994. The "Cable" button will blink twice.

4) Press (do not hold) the "Setup" button.

5) Type in the code 00173 (for 30 second Skip).

6) Press the "HD Zoom" button to map the skip or swap function to it.

7) You're done.

I believe those are the instructions I've seen before, and they only work with some of the remotes that Comcast hands out. Not include, alas, ours.

Thanks for the instructions. I just traded in my single tuner box for a dual tuner box this weekend. I tried the skip-code on the remote that they gave me (brand-new) and it works! So apparently, they are still distributing the remotes/boxes where this feature will work. One thing I can say to help others is to make sure that the "cable" button light blinks when you press the "HD Zoom" button in step 6 above. It didn't do this the first time I tried the procedure and it didn't work - the second time it did. That feature rocks! Now about the difference between the two boxes - it's like night and day - the dual tuner software and interface is MUCH better. It's not as nice as Tivo (as others have pointed out), but it's closer to Tivo than the single tuner. The really nice things are series recording (like season pass?) and the show/recording progress indicator when fast-forwarding or rewinding. Both of these are very nice features. I have noticed a bug when trying to schedule two programs at once (even switching between the tuners) where it kept telling me that I had a recording conflict, but this only happens when two shows start at the same time. Otherwise, it will allow simultaneous recording when show times overlap. Has anyone else seen this? It only happened once and it very well could have been user error with me getting used to the box and interface.

I have seen the same problem with programming that Joe talked about. For instance, I tried to set it to record "Law & Order" (10:00PM) and "Eyes" (10:02PM) and it reports a scheduling conflict. I'm thinking it has to do with the off-time that ABC schedules some of their programs. I can manually record "Law & Order" without a conflict, but I have to remember to do so.

Enabling 30-second skip on the silver 6208 remote
Hey all,
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but it is possible to remap any of the buttons on the silver remote that Comcast provides to the 30-second skip function. The procedure detailed in this thread:

(I am looking for a website that has 2 minute skip, someone told me that they have one but did not have info on them at the time and I have not seen them since)

30-second skip

works with the silver comcast remote, too (the remote allows discrete button codes). I mapped the FAV button on the remote to do the 30-second skip by following this procedure:

1) Press the "Cable" button at the top of the remote to put it into Cable Box control mode.
2) Press and hold the "Setup" button until the "Cable" button blinks twice.
3) Type in the code 994. The "Cable" button will blink twice
4) Press (do not hold) the "Setup" button
5) Type in the code 00173.
6) Press whatever button you want to map the skip function to (FAV in my case).

That should be it.. so if you're like me and don't hate the silver comcast remote too much, this is a nice alternative to using a better remote like a Pronto.

Also, if you have a learning remote that you like better, just have it learn the skip function from the comcast remote after you do this.

Quoth ***Dave ...

Um, yes, it was mentioned, oh, about four comments above yours ...